As we marched towards the rubble of the homes my heart was pounding. I turned a corner and saw the first heap. Stone, steel, wood, all kinds of material whose purposes were now indecipherable. It was hard to tell that this had actually been a home. Three children were sitting on top of the rubble, not saying a thing, just looking. I couldn't handle it, I turned to leave. And as I was turning I saw out of the corner of my eye, under a tree with his face in his hands, the owner of the home. He must have been around 70 years old. He was sobbing. I probably do not need to tell you my reaction.
Next to this man was a pile of chairs and table, some tapestries, etc. I asked Sami what that pile was and he replied, "It's what they were able to salvage in an hour. That's how quick the notice is. The IDF shows up with the caterpillar and crane and tells them they have one hour. After that, if they aren't out of the home, the IDF claims that they cannot be held accountable."
Thanks to Adam for pointing me to this entry, and also for telling the story of the refuseniks, loyal members of the IDF who refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories.
By the way, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has gone on record to oppose the construction by Israel of the so-called "Separation Barrier."
File under: Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Israel, Palestine, peace, justice
20 comments:
Thanks for joining me on my bench. I don't accept the claim that the PCUSA is anti-semitic.
Contrary to what you may have heard, the PCUSA is not boycotting Israel. It is in the process of determining how to boycott specific disapproved activities by the government of Israel.
callieieschatty,
You said "According to you the only people who suffer are Arabs, Jews tear down their houses and build a wall for the fun of being greedy monsters." Are you trying to put words in my mouth?
You ask "On the PSUSA site do you see any mention of Israeli victims of Arab terror?" You claim that the site does not acknowledge the existence of these victims.
You must have overlooked the statement, "The Assembly has approved numerous resolutions on Israel and Palestine, repeatedly affirming, clearly and unequivocally, Israel's right to exist within permanent, recognized, and "secure" borders (for example: 1969, 1974, 1977, 1983, 1989). It has deplored the cycle of escalating violence — carried out by both Palestinians and Israelis — that is rooted in Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian territories (see statements of successive Assemblies since 1967). Presbyterians have expressed concern about the loss of lives of innocent Israelis and Palestinians (see "Resolution on the Middle East," 1997, and "Resolution on Israel and Palestine: End the Occupation Now," 2003)."
"It has deplored the cycle of escalating violence — carried out by both Palestinians and Israelis — that is rooted in Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian territories"
No, the terrorism is rooted in the Arab bloc using the Pals as proxies to try to drive Jews out of our ancestral homeland, which we continued to return to for the past 2000 years, despite being repeatedly "ethnically cleansed" by Christians and Muslims. The terrorism began long before the occupation.
But your response begs the question. The PCUSA is not considering sanctions on anyone doing business with the Pals. All the ACTIONS are against Israel. You also avoid responding to the charge that only Israel is singled out, while its human rights record is miles better than many other nations, and many other nations build walls to keep out immigrants or refugees, but nobody gets outraged by them.
As long as only Israel is repeatedly singled out, it is antisemitism and double standards.
Also, after taking Gaza and the Wbank in a defensive war, Israel offered to give back the territories to their previous owners, Jordan and Egypt. both refused. There was never any Palestinian state, and Jordan and Egypt wanted to give Israel the headache of figuring out what to do with the Arabs living in Gaza and the Wbank.
Since the construction of the fence - which is only a wall in 3% of its length, in areas where snipers repeatedly shoot into Israel from neighboring towns - deaths of Israelis from suicide bombings have decreased to almost zero, wherever the fence has been built. The PCUSA is decrying a defensive measure which saves Israeli lives.
BTW the fence also saves Arab lives, since 20% of Israel's citizens are Arab and they also have been killed in suicide bombings.
Israel doesn't owe the Pals jobs. They can get jobs in Egypt and Jordan. (Oh, their economies don't provide jobs as much as Israel - I wonder why that is?) The Pals are smart and educated. As soon as they develop a government based in property rights and rule of law they will get investment and jobs. Right now the territories are like a mafia neighborhood full of graft and extortion, because of Arafat.
Israel cannot fix this problem for the Pals, they have to do it themselves. As long as people like you and the PCUSA make excuses for their terrorism, they will not have incentive to change.
Ad hominem arguments such as those you have offered are inherently fallacious.
Moreover, ad hominem arguments tend to distance and alienate the person spoken against, making it less likely that you will change that person's mind.
This conversation started when I drew attention to the plight of a 70 year old man who was given one hour to remove whatever he could from his home. The responses to that post justified the rapid demolition of an inhabited residence by the fact that someone else in another place had bombed a bus or a shopping center. None of the responses have connected this 70 year old displaced person with the bombings except through the implication that Palestinians were involved in the acts of terror, and the stated assumption that he must not have wanted peace and prosperity enough to deserve to keep his home. What I am hearing appears to me to be a racist argument, and I have given opportunities for you to clarify so that I could hear it in any other way. Instead of hearing clarifications, I hear repeated slurs against myself, my church, and the Palestinians in general.
I sense a lack of congruity between your insulting statements and my experience of Jewish people in the carbon-based world. Accordingly, I am consciously reminding myself not to allow your words to affect negatively how I relate to the next person I meet.
In the original post by Alyssa, I was frankly moved by her depiction of the humanity of the IDF soldiers who were in the horrendous situation of doing things under orders that she felt they could not justify to their own consciences. This is another sad consequence of the construction of an illegal wall that does not follow Israel's border or sit entirely within Israel's territory. There is more being harmed than real estate and personal property. The harms caused by the construction of the wall are being done both to Israelis and to Palestinians. And it is my understanding that both groups are Semitic.
It is my expectation that guests who join me on my virtual park bench will speak respectfully to and of others. If you want to rant against people or insult them, you have or can start your own blogs for that purpose.
The Presbyterian Church has consistently supported Israel's right to exist within permanent, recognized, and secure borders. The Church is not boycotting the whole nation; it has not endorsed a boycott of Israeli goods as some are now doing. It has initiated a process of phased, selective divestment in multinational corporations operating in Israel and Palestine. You can read more about the guidelines for this process at http://www.pcusa.org/worldwide/israelpalestine/resources/20guidelinesdivestment.pdf.
If you know of multinational corporations that provide products and services, including financial services, to Palestinian organizations/groups that support or facilitate violent acts against innocent civilians, please make sure the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) knows about them. Such corporations should be considered for the progressive steps the Church is following.
When a person has a negative interaction with another there are a number of possible responses. One can consciously take steps to ensure that it does not affect future interactions with others. One can allow the experience to function subconsciously to color future interactions. Or one can consciously decide to let the experience govern future interactions.
Those who endorse racial profiling fall in the last category.
I did not respond to many of the possibly rhetorical questions being posed because I was waiting for responses that would let me know what was really being asked. But I will try to answer the questions I hear.
callieischatty asked: "Why would someone as nice as you support the antisemitism of the Pres USA Church?"
I deny that the PCUSA is antisemitic.
callieischatty asked: "The only country boycotted is Israel, not one other nation. Isn't that odd?"
First, the PCUSA is not boycotting Israel; it is engaged in phased selective divestment. Second, the PCUSA has supported divestment efforts against activities in other countries until the goals were achieved. Third, the PCUSA is also including multinational corporations that provide products and services, including financial services, to Palestinian organizations/groups that support or facilitate violent acts against innocent civilians. What I find odd is your claim that Israel is being singled out.
callieischatty asked: "Why do they only boycott Isreal?"
I've answered this above, denying that there is a boycott, denying that Israel is being boycotted, and denying that Israel is singled out.
callieischatty asked: "Why do members meet with Hizbollah and praise people who call for the murder of all Jews?"
In the interest of working for peace members of the PCUSA meet with many people who will help them understand conflicts in the world. Some meetings are authorized by the church, some are not. Sometimes members listen and speak wisely; sometimes they speak when silence would have been better; sometimes they are silent when spoken words would have made a positive difference. As I understand it, the meeting of some members with Hezbollah was not officially authorized, and the PCUSA's highest officials expressed the church's position that the statements of praise for Hezbollah were "reprehensible." http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/2004/04477.htm
callieischatty asked: "Why can't Isreal a tiny sliver of a country only 8 miles wide defend herself from suicide bombings by building a wall?"
Of course Israel can build a wall, but it should not build a wall on land that is not its own. Israel should end the occupation and build a much shorter wall on its own territory.
callieischatty asked: "Why is it the church only boycotts the only Jewish state in the world while 22 Arab states try to wipe this country that is trying to hard to survive off the face of the earth?"
This sounds like a repeat question. As above, there is not a boycott of Israel, and Israel is not singled out.
callieischatty asked: "And why do you support this? "
I support the position of my church because I believe that there is far more hope for peace and security for Israel through good relationships with its neighbors than in a cycle of escalating violence.
callieischatty asked: "On the PSUSA site do you see any mention of Israeli victims of Arab terror?"
Although you presumed to answer the question for me in the negative, I have pointed out to you that the PCUSA does recognize that there are victims of terror by both sides.
Your source for this story is a pro-Palestinian blog. You have not pointed out a news story that can be checked and verified, and we cannot put in in context.
Were shots being fired from this house? Did a suicide bomber live there? Was it covering a weapons-smuggling tunnel?
Do you think that Israel randomly chooses homes for demolition? Or, do you believe that homes demolished by Israel make room for Jewish settlements (a complete lie that is often published by Palestinians)?
Beyond that, although I know nothing about this blog you quote, Palestinians have a tendency to, shall we say, "exaggerate"? There are countless examples of Palestinians, from officials down to "witnesses", who claim to have seen something only to have it later revealed that it was totally made up. (See http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Unreliable_Palestinian_Witnesses.asp for details on just the latest example. Jenin was another egregious example, and I have cataloged many more.)
No one doubts that innocent Palestinians get hurt in the crossfire, but to report on those cases out of context is intellectually dishonest. The separation barrier between Israel nd the Palestinians has, unquestionably, saved many lives - including Palestinian lives! Does that fact not enter into the calculus of what is considered good or bad? To my possibly naive mind, inconveniencing some people to save many lives is quite a bargain. Perhaps you disagree.
I follow the Israel/Palestinian conflict very closely. There may be some times that one could argue about a specific Israeli action, but it is clear that the IDF does not make a decision to destroy a home or attack Palestinians without a very good reason, and the rare times that soldiers act out of their policy they get punished. To act as if Israel randomly harasses Palestinians is nothing short of a lie. Someohow, over a million Palestinians choose to live in Israel today, under Jewish-majority rule. If Israel was as racist as you are implying, why would that be?
To criticize Israel for doing things that are positively restrained compared to any other country in a remotely similar situation makes one wonder why Israel should be singled out.
There's only ONE question to ask of you or anyone else who decides to "debate" this issue: "Have you ever actually been to Israel or the Palestinian territories." If the answer is "no," then please be quiet. There is no way you can know what you are talking about.
There have also been many press reports lately about how seethingly anti-Israel Arab groups have infiltrated your church and its synods. American WASPS who have never set foot in Israel are easy marks for these guys. I'm sorry you're not smarter.
Israel is not perfect, but I defy anyone to produce evidence of a country that is actually more restrained given the challenges it faces every day. I am no fan of the current government and I think a lot of terrible things have been done by Israel to Arabs. But since so much more has been done to them by their fellow Arabs, I find it disgraceful to single out Israel in this way. In fact it's downright suspicious. And this is why you are being accused of Anti-Semitism.
And if I were a member of a Church that never made any such pronouncements decrying the Holocaust, (at least while it was going on), and is much more known as the bastion of Preppy exclusivity and restricted country clubs, I would really remain silent. And now, I give you this:
Top 10 Ways Jews Can Retaliate Against Presbyterian Divestment in Israel
by Jake Novak
10) Begin counter-boycott of Hellmann's Mayonnaise and Wonder Bread
9) Stop supporting all the Presbyterian comedians... oh wait, there aren't any!
8) Wear white shoes after Labor Day
7) Stop serving watercress sandwiches at Shabbat Kiddush
6) Replace Muzak in Jewish doctor's offices with Klezmer CD's
5) Secretly replace all references to John Calvin in Presbyterian doctrine with "Calvin Klein"
4) Initiate hostile takeover of L.L. Bean
3) Crash the next party at the country club
2) Water down the booze in junior's sippy cup
1) Let them do their own damn taxes!
This is a dhimmi site.
The man has a right to do as he pleases. I refuse to have anything more to do with it.
elder of ziyon said:
"You have not pointed out a news story that can be checked and verified, and we cannot put in in context."
According to the eye witness source the date of the house demolitions was July 27, 2005. The location of the demolitions was Al Khader. Go ahead and check it out and put it in context. She says there were two house demolitions in Al Khader that day. Were there so many more than two house demolitions that day in Al Khader that it is impossible to put in context?
an anonymous commenter said:
"There's only ONE question to ask of you or anyone else who decides to "debate" this issue: "Have you ever actually been to Israel or the Palestinian territories." If the answer is "no," then please be quiet. There is no way you can know what you are talking about."
No I have not been to Israel or the Palestinian territories. Perhaps I should. But when other Presbyterians whom I trust visit those places and tell me about their experiences, I'll rely on their reports.
I invite the anonymous commenter to meet me here in Tarentum, Pennsylvania before making more comments about prep schools (didn't attend one) and country clubs (never belonged to one). You'll have to explain the Hellmann's (don't use it), watercress sandwiches (don't eat them), sippy cup (don't have one), and Muzak (don't play it) comments to me because they've gone completely over my head. Otherwise, very funny.
I cannot find any Israeli news source that discusses the demolitions. I did find a pro-Palestinian web page that showed that Israel had already planned to expand a road near Al Khader, involving land confiscation, in 1998, to build a bypass road for the security of Jewish settlements. It is entirely possible that this is part of that plan from seven years ago - meaning that the Palestinians knew about it years beforehand as well, not "an hour."
And many times Palestinians would build houses illegally - they also do "land grabs".
This is conjecture on my part, but it makes much more sense that Israel would be implementing a well-known plan rather than suddenly going in to demolish a house randomly as implied by Palestinian and other Arab sources. After all, they have no interest in publicizing Israel's plans from beforehand. And the Arab news stories about this demolition in Al-Khader all claimed that Israel was going to build settlements there, which is of course absurd - settlements are built generally some distance from Arab villages.
On that same day Israel did demolish a terrorist house in Jenin.
An anonymous commenter said:
"And if I were a member of a Church that never made any such pronouncements decrying the Holocaust, (at least while it was going on), ... I would really remain silent."
Thank you for this information. As you might guess, I was neither alive nor a Presbyterian at the time of the Holocaust. I had not heard before this that the Presbyterian Church had been silent during the Holocaust. I am trying to learn more about what was going on in the Presbyterian Church then, what they knew about the Holocaust, and when they knew it. It is going to take some time for me to find the right resources (which may well be offline).
callieischatty said:
"Here is a list of people who have been identified as needing help and prayers."
Thank you for posting this list of prayer requests for victims of terrorst violence
The posts dated Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:59:41 PM and Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:37:47 PM were deleted for inappropriate language.
Thank you for the invitation to visit your blog. I have checked from time to time on what people are discussing there, and will probably visit more in the future.
I understand the intention of the separation barrier to preserve life on both sides.
Right now the government of Israel is taking courageous and risky steps toward peace in the disengagement and evacuation of Gaza. It seems to me that this is a time to pray for the people on both sides that the steps being taken will bear fruit that makes for a safer world for all.
callieischatty said
"I wanted to point out that Adam whose blog you link to has Hamas slogans on his web site of his summer travels."
I had not noticed the slogan in the banner on Adam's blog from the Holy Land. When I googled for Hamas slogans, I came across many slogans but gave up paging throught the search results to find a reference to this one.
I am not disputing that Hamas may use this slogan, but it strikes me as the kind of slogan that any group that understands itself as part of a resistance movement might embrace.
Presbyterian relationships with Palestinians go back at least 150 years, long before the establishment of modern Israel, or the formation of Hamas. We relate to the indigenous Christian churches in the Middle East, and their goals are emphatically not the Hamas goal of the establishment of an Islamic state.
In our conversations with those churches our representatives regularly raise our church's concern that Israel must continue and be secure.
I believe that Adam saw the things that he reported in his blog. I don't believe that he saw the whole story; no human being can be everywhere and see from all perspectives at once. By the same token, another group of Presbyterians visited Israel this year and stayed with Israeli hosts and came away believing that the house demolitions had stopped. I believe that they too told what they saw, but it was not the whole story.
Continuing to pray for peace.
I condemn the use of violence for terrorism.
Based on what I read about Hamas in Wikipedia, it is at least partially a political organization. Their goal, the elimination of Israel, is unacceptable in addition to being unrealistic.
Can you help me understand why you see the slogan "To exist is to resist" as a Hamas slogan? According to Wikipedia, their main slogan is "God is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of its wishes." I don't understand some of what this longer slogan means, but the parts I do understand I don't like.
I've posted a blog entry to discuss the meaning of the short slogan at http://centralparkbench.blogspot.com/2005/08/verbal-inkblot-to-exist-is-to-resist.html if you want to join that conversation.
Blessings
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